Interview with Doug Wood

By Brad Dupray

Doug Wood spent the last five years as executive pastor at Florence (Oregon) Christian Church. During that time, Doug led the church on a search for its purpose and provided direction to achieve that purpose. As a result, God transformed a traditional church with one full-time pastor into a dynamic, community-based church with a ministry staff of 10. Doug recently accepted a call as colead minister at Craig (Colorado) Christian Church, where he is helping Christians embrace a first-century growth environment. Doug has a bachelor”s degree from Hope International University, Fullerton, California, and a master”s degree from Cincinnati (Ohio) Christian University.

What makes a church want to grow enough to change?

Most churches say they want to grow, but they fear the change associated with growth. They fear change will mean compromising doctrine and losing elements of their spiritual heritage. Patiently and lovingly teaching first-century Christianity with Restoration principles can alleviate these fears and an environment of growth can be established.

So you have to address the fears before you make big changes.

Yes, we need to identify the fears, identify what those fears are based on, and then work on removing the counterproductive, unbiblical fears. When people can truly recognize and understand the difference between biblical and productive change versus change that is not in agreement with God”s Word, they are more open to change.

Lack of openness to change usually seems to be the challenge.

It”s about helping people understand the rationale behind change. First we help people understand what the church can be, then allow them to see that they can become that, with the understanding that some things require change. You help them understand that as long as changes are biblical, necessary, and led by God, then they need to be embraced. This takes time, teaching, and trust.

Isn”t it reasonable for members of a church to think, This new guy is going to change things for the worst?

Yes, that”s why we need to identify the fears and change the fears first and not be in too much of a hurry to make physical changes at first. In most traditional situations, people have been doing church the same way for many years. Paradigms and mind-sets didn”t come into existence overnight, and they won”t change overnight. This takes patience, purposeful teaching, and a focus on loving people. Most people fear change because they don”t understand why change needs to take place””in a way that makes sense to them. And they don”t trust the motives or abilities of the people who are leading the change. When people understand and trust, they are usually open to change.

The changes have to fit within their paradigm in some way.

Most people aren”t against change if the changes are biblical, make sense, and are led by God. People that struggle with change are afraid of compromising the Word and losing their own heritage, for what is less meaningful and less biblical.

How do you differentiate between negotiables and nonnegotiables?

The beautiful thing is that in most of our Restoration Movement churches, they”ve already defined the nonnegotiables. The problem is that some churches, in their beliefs and actions, have made certain nonnegotiables more important than other nonnegotiables. Or they have misunderstood what Jesus and the apostles were actually teaching. The challenge is to look at biblical teaching through the eyes of the apostles and their followers and not through a legalistic denominational belief system. It is imperative that you very clearly spell out what the negotiables and the nonnegotiables are in regard to beliefs and values.

What a church says and what it does need to “sync up.”

This often means reintroducing Restoration principles and honestly looking at what we say we believe verses what we actually believe. This can have a transformational effect on a church and individual Christians. As a church learns to do this, and people see you”re serious about not compromising the nonnegotiables, it makes it easier for people to trust and get excited about the future.

How does this balance with the ultimate purpose of the church?

Well, let”s look at the core purposes of the church: the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. We say we believe in the Great Commandment. We say we believe that all the law of the prophets hang on loving God with every part of our being, and loving others the way God loves us. And that everything else flows from that love. But then we tell people Jesus taught his disciples to go and show their love by obeying the law and to put their primary energy into obeying a set of rules to demonstrate their love for God.

And it”s not just about following the rules.

The problem is that it”s easy to follow a set of rules and not have a fulfilling, joyful, love relationship with Jesus that is attractive to the world. Jesus actually taught that if you place your primary energy into loving God relationally in a really intimate way, then the supernatural desire and ability to obey will follow. Where do we place our first energy””into loving God, or into following the rules? The former produces gratitude and surrender in which the supernatural power of God can work through people. The latter can easily produce legalism and empty, powerless, judgmental religion.

How do you see the typical American church measuring up to that?

Typical American Christianity has emphasized that the Great Commission is primarily about bringing people to church, or getting people saved, or getting people baptized, or getting people to believe the right doctrine so that we can have more people who are good Christians in Heaven.

But isn”t that what we”re supposed to do?

Jesus” commission was more powerful and simple than that. He told his disciples to go and make disciples, teaching them to obey what he taught them. What did he spend three-plus years teaching his disciples? He taught them how to make disciples. A simplified paraphrase from the Greek of the Great Commission would be, “As you are going about loving me and loving others, make disciples who are equipped and effective at making disciples who make disciples. In the typical, American interpretation of the Great Commission, it can produce a bunch of people trying to bring people to church in order to listen to messages and experience services to become saved and be good Christians. In reality, it was about making disciple-making disciples. Disciple-making disciples were of central importance to the first-century church. It”s not a matter of how many people you have in church on a given Sunday. You can”t have a church full of disciple-making disciples and not be growing and changing the world, but you can have thousands of people coming to a show every Sunday and not truly having their lives changed in supernatural ways through a love relationship with God.

So are the changes required for a church to grow primarily philosophical, or are there physical changes that take place?

Initially more ideological changes need to be made. But ideological changes will eventually produce physical changes. The physical changes will come as a result of rightly understanding the first-century church and Restoration principles.

How do you know that leadership is willing to change? There are plenty of stories of leaders who said they would change but then didn”t.

Not only must leaders verbally assent to changes, they must commit this agreement to writing. The one thing about traditional churches and people is that they may not understand everything about changing culture and church growth, but they usually understand integrity and the value of a person”s word. When they make commitments that are in black and white, they will honor those commitments as long as they are not beat over the head with them.

How do you hold them to it without beating them over the head?

The old adage is true: people don”t care what you know until they know that you care. If it”s about building a resume or an empire unto yourself, then people can sense that. If your motivation is truly about loving God, loving others, and expanding his kingdom for his glory, then people can sense that too. If the latter is the foundation, then developing a unified team with mutual goals and accountability can be established, and commitments become exciting rather than things to be feared.

What is the hardest part of change to pull off?

Getting trust and “buy-in” with people. People trust you when they trust you. You can”t write, “gain trust of people” on a to-do list, and then accomplish it the next day.

How do you gain trust?

It takes love, sacrifice, and patience. You appeal to common beliefs in people and start there. For most people who are resistant to change, it”s not that they don”t love Jesus, it”s that they don”t trust or believe that the changes are going to be for the good. This comes back to teaching, loving, and leading.

Instead of making lots of operational changes, and then arguing with people about the evils of change, we need to build a common set of values and purpose and see what”s the best way to get there. I found that even with older people, if you go back to their love for God and the biblical beliefs you have in common, then they are much more willing to make changes””if they make sense and if they trust your motives.

Is it always older people who appear to be the guardians?

No. My experience has shown that the people we thought were going to be on board were not always the people who ended up being on board. And some of the people I thought would be our greatest adversaries to growth became the greatest proponents of growth. What people are on the outside is not always a true reflection of where their heart truly wants to be.

We”re talking about people who have invested their lives in the church. How does the new guy connect with them?

In a traditional setting there are three types of people. You have the pioneers. They were doing cutting-edge ministry 50 years ago and they led the church into its glory days by changing, and they still have a pioneer mind-set today. Then there are protectors. They were never really a part of the changing to begin with; they want to protect the way things have always been. The pure protectors aren”t going to change. They”re not there for the kingdom purposes, they”re there to protect their traditions.

And the third type?

Then there are “pioneers-turned-protectors.” Many people were pioneers in the past, but have become protectors over the years. When you reconnect these people with their pioneering heart and teach them that they”re not too old to continue to pioneer the future, you”ll find many protectors again become pioneers who will stand up and lead their generation as one of their generation. When you reconnect them to their pioneering spirit they become champions of change in today”s age. But it won”t happen if they don”t understand it or don”t trust the changes being proposed. And this takes time.

Is change easier in nontraditional settings?

Capable leaders will find it much easier to establish a growing, first-century culture in new church plants and in urban/suburban settings where change is common in the culture. And we definitely need great leaders planting new churches and leading churches in our country”s urban and suburban settings.

So is the corollary that change can”t happen in “traditional” churches?

Unfortunately, too many capable leaders tend to write off the traditional church as being closed to change and destined just to survive and exist. This is understandable, because thousands of pastors have tried to change traditional churches and been unsuccessful. I believe the biblical, first-century church provides God”s blueprint for his church to be growing and dynamic anywhere if that blueprint is applied with the right heart and a dependence on God. Oftentimes there can be more opportunity to influence a region with God”s love in a community under 10,000 people than in communities that have millions. Imagine what kind of influence a church of only 1,000 people could have in a community of 8,000. The ability to influence school districts, city governments, and entire cultures exists. Not through a political process, but through the demonstration of God”s love in ways evident and appreciated by a majority of citizens. Anyone can argue morality and politics, but you can”t argue love. As we teach the right things in the right ways, many churches are more than capable of truly getting back to first-century principles. It”s a matter of reconnecting to the church of the first century and not the traditional American church or to church-growth fads. The change we”re talking about is not really new change; it”s change that gets back to God”s purposes for the church, and that should be what we are about as biblical church leaders.

How can the American church reconnect to the New Testament church?

It”s a difference in heart, in structure, and in dependence on God.

Sounds like a good three-point sermon.

As for the heart, the typical American church, while it preaches grace and unconditional love, often inadvertently communicates that to belong to church a person must believe and behave in the right way. So if a person believes the right things and behaves the right way then the church is a place where the person can belong.

Believes what things? In what way?

A set of denominational beliefs or behaving in accordance with a set of moral standards.

What”s wrong with moral standards? You have to have them.

God created us to have a relationship with him; when we have that relationship, he will live through us and the rules will take care of themselves. So having a heart for God and a heart for people and living out of a true grace-based motivation is a central difference between the first-century church and the heart of the typical American church. Having elders and leaders that get this is foundational to growth.

So a motivation based on grace can cause us to live a more pure, holy lifestyle.

Absolutely! Jesus accepted people in spite of their beliefs and regardless of their behavior. Think of the woman at the well. He accepted her and loved her first, even though there were several cultural and moral things wrong with her background, actions, and beliefs. Then loving her unconditionally helped her learn to trust him. He didn”t have any agenda or angle other than his love for her and his desire for her to connect with God”s love. That”s the type of love people can trust. Because she trusted him, she was willing to consider his beliefs objectively. As she did, she came to understand that those beliefs were true. Based on the acceptance she received and the beliefs she adjusted to on her own, her behavior changed. And the behavior changed from the inside out, not the outside in.

And ultimately that has a reflection on what we do, our “works.”

In our churches, we say we are grace-based, but a lot of what we show through our actions is works-based. When Jesus said, “If you love me you”ll obey my commands,” that is interpreted in the American church as, “We need to obey God to prove or show our love for God.” In reality it”s the other way around. What Jesus was saying is this: “If you love me you will obey me.” Are we placing our energy into what we obey, or are we placing our energy into loving God? Instead of putting energy into obeying, put that same energy into loving God, and through God”s power, the desires to disobey will diminish and you will experience victory.

You can obey all the rules and not truly love God and not have a joyful life, but you cannot put your energy and being into loving God and not “obey the rules.” There”s a fine line between me living for God and God living through me. In the American church we”re good at teaching people to live in their own strength to glorify God, but in the Bible it”s more about loving God and letting God live through us. And our ultimate motivation is what God did in demonstrating his own love for us. It”s also important to know that you don”t have to compromise any truth to live this way. But you may have to embrace more surrender and a more relational connection with God.

So is the heart the baseline of change for the church?

It”s one baseline. Making sure that the good news really is good news, and not another works-based religion couched in the language of grace-based Christianity.

Oh yeah, I forgot, there are two more points to this sermon. We”re not just talking about changing people individually, we”re talking about changing the church, collectively. You mentioned structure. That can get a little sticky.

Yes. Most churches are set up to run like a government or a corporation, or both, which is typical of American society. The church of the first century was not set up like a democratic government or a corporation. The church of the first century was a combination of a family, a fellowship, a body, and a flock. When we structure the church to operate according to its nature, then it will produce what it was designed to produce. A democracy is designed to produce the will of the people. And we know what happens in the Bible every time the will of the people started taking control. The people wanted to go back to its bondage in Egypt and Aaron ended up making a pretty gold calf to worship. So redefining a biblical structure that is consistent with the nature of the church is vital. Surprisingly, even traditional people (pioneers and protectors-turned-pioneers), when they look at things through Scripture that is taught in a patient, loving way, and with God”s heart, are very capable of understanding this.

And of course you have to depend on God.

Pioneers can relate to risk and going into the unknown. And a spiritual pioneer understands relying on God beyond himself or herself. When we venture out into change and becoming a New Testament church, it absolutely, positively, 100 percent requires that we depend on God”s strength and God”s power and the working of God”s Holy Spirit in order to navigate change and allow the church to be the church. It would be easy for me, as I look back on my life, to take credit for the many successes God has accomplished in my life. But then I go back and remember the lack of resources and dependence on God that produced those successes. And it reminds me that he”s the One who changes the hearts and provides the resources we need to reach people. We always need to remember that growing God”s kingdom is his gig, and not ours. The obstacles in the way of change, the resources required for change, and the relationships and unity necessary to change are always greater than what is humanly available. Therefore, we must learn as people and as churches not just to live for him, but to let him actually live through us. As we do this, God always does amazing things in Christ Jesus and through the church through all generations. It”s not easy. It”s not safe. But it”s always worth it!

Brad Dupray is senior vice president, investor development, with Church Development Fund, Irvine, California.