By Tyler McKenzie
On a recent trip to visit family we logged 20 hours of road travel. While my kids watched movies in the back, I grasped for my noise-canceling headphones. The adult mind wasn’t made for six hours of Curious George. I then proceeded to binge several episodes of The Joe Rogan Experience. It’s the most listened-to podcast on Spotify averaging 11 million listeners per episode.
I had never listened to an episode before. He never intrigued me. I don’t watch UFC. I didn’t like his comedy. It was aggressive, full of shallow “bro humor” and unfair potshots at religion. My lone fond memory of Rogan is as the host of Fear Factor. Everything I ever heard about the podcast came secondhand, but I was finding myself in more and more spiritual conversations inspired by it.
Rogan’s audience is 80 percent men that are (+/-) 15 years my age. It feels like a month doesn’t pass without non-Christian friends referencing a Rogan interview. I’ve been friends with one guy for a decade. He is not a Christian but has taken to my preaching. He attends Northeast occasionally and loves to talk about spiritual topics. Most of our spiritual conversations revolve around the most recent thing he’s heard on Joe Rogan. We have discussed the spirituality of psychedelics, the theological implications of aliens, Christianity’s compatibility with science, transgender theory, and more!
If you are a Christian, you are a missionary on the mission field of wherever you are. I never want to be off-trend in my cultural awareness or dismissive of missional opportunities. It was John Stott who said, “We stand between the Word and the world, with the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other.”
. . . So, I binged Rogan.
I had to figure out why some of my friends were obsessed. Upon reflection, there were more things I didn’t like than things I did, but I learned a ton. I could write 10,000 words, but I’ll only give you three insights.
Many men are hungry for long, raw, deep conversations.
In a day when what rules the internet are punchy soundbites that caricature the enemy and ignore the nuance, Rogan is not that. His episodes are 2.5 to 3 hours long with just the right doses of wandering randomness and structured interrogation. The wandering conversations humanize his guests (who are often celebrities, scientists, or public figures). The structure ensures they actually get to the issues the audience wants to hear. They can get surprisingly deep.
So many people are mourning that we don’t know how to have real conversations anymore. Rogan is creating space for that. He is talking about interesting stuff in accessible rather than elitist ways. He’s not the only one doing this. When done well, it is a reprieve from the tired and anxiety-inducing format of news media and social media. News media has become polarized, sensationalized, and catastrophized. Social media feels similar except it adds a comments section which becomes a dumpster fire of human depravity, outrage, and hate.
Rogan is open-minded, but he isn’t impartial, filtered, polished, or efficient. I would contend that some of his ideas aren’t safe, but that’s the appeal. When my friends say, “I like how he keeps it real,” this is what is underneath it.
Many men are drawn to confident-bro-masculinity.
His audience is a diverse group of mostly men.
- 51% aged 18-34
- 37% aged 35-54
- 35% are Independent or “something else”
- 32% are Republican
- 27% are Democratic
- 21% are Hispanic or Latino
- His audience is evenly split between those with high school and post/secondary graduate degrees.
Why is he able to reach such a wide base of men? I believe it’s because men are drawn to his confident bro-masculinity. Joe is physically fit and an expert on mixed-martial-arts. He has a wide range of vices which include drinking, smoking, and psychedelics. He cusses. He is funny, winsome, and witty. He can hold his own in an argument on just about anything. And here’s the key: He says exactly what is on his mind without concern for political correctness or fear of repercussion. Yet, somehow while and after sparring with his guests, he seems pleasant and genuinely eager to understand their position.
I think this is who Joe Rogan is. It’s not an act, and men dig it. He is offering young men a vision of masculinity during a time when masculinity is labeled one thing by broader culture: Toxic. White men are told not to talk. Joe won’t shut up. All men are being told to “do better,” but there is no compelling vision given for what better is. The Joe Rogan Experience offers a vision. It isn’t an especially Christian vision, but it is clearly compelling.
Many men are spiritually curious.
If you do a deep dive on Rogan’s guests the past five years, the variety is dizzying. My favorite quality of Rogan is his enormous capacity for curiosity, but my least favorite quality is how careless he stewards his mega-platform in the name of curiosity. One of the main criticisms he gets is that he gives too much airtime to people with dangerous ideas. I agree. He defends himself behind the guise of being a bastion for free speech. While I support free speech, we must steward our platforms with the common good in mind. Nonetheless, people keep tuning in. There is incredible tolerance (dare we call it interest?) for subversive, bizarre, forbidden, and unconventional ideas.
This is true today with spirituality. I see this in my own city. There is a rebound happening from secularization back to spirituality. Mark Matlock (See Faith for the Curious) and the Barna Group (See Rising Spiritual Openness in America) have documented this well. Only about 10 percent of the American population are naturalists. Only 19 percent are practicing Christians. The other 71 percent fall somewhere in the middle, the spiritually curious.
My belief is that Rogan is emblematic of this larger movement of public figures becoming increasingly interested in spirituality (and in some cases converting to Christianity). The frontlines of Christian mission are becoming Joe-Rogan-look-alikes. The naturalistic arguments of the new Atheists are dead. Rogan himself has pivoted away from those. Americans are waking up to our need for the transcendent if we are to have a basis for morality, justice, hope, meaning, and healthy community. If we are willing to be tolerant rather than puritanical, adventurous rather than prudish, and curious rather than defensive in our conversations, we will see more evangelistic fruit.
To summarize . . .
After binging Rogan, I’m not endorsing. I did learn about being a missionary today:
- We need to reclaim the art of conversation.
- We need to cast a vision for cross-shaped masculinity.
- We need to delight in curiosity and seize this opportunity.
At this writing, Rogan just released an interview with Christian apologist Wesley Huff. This was the first time he has hosted a Christian intellectual. Here’s to hoping Wesley peaks the curiosity of Rogan’s listeners.
Editor’s Note: Tyler writes a monthly online column for Christian Standard viewable at christianstandard.com. This column is reprinted from his collection of online writings.
Tyler McKenzie serves as lead pastor at Northeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky
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